Do it Yourself: January 2020

29 January 2020

[DIY] An electrical reminder

Just a reminder for all of you guys who do electrical work only now and then. I just worked on a switch that no one knew what it went to; when I disconnected the wires from the switch there was no voltage. I ran an extension cord from an operating outlet and when I tested the voltage of both wires to the common of the extension cord, I got 126 and 122 volts, similar to what I had under the building a couple weeks ago when someone switched the hot and neutral for the subpanel fusebox.

What I think happened in this case was that they had an outlet that wasn't working (because the switch to it was off) and so they ran power to it. Seeing the wires from the switch, they thought they went to another outlet somewhere so they connected them up to the newly powered outlet. Because there were other items on that circuit, there was power going to the switch on the constant leg and the switched leg. I capped off both wires and stuffed them in the box.

SO … if you ever find yourself trying to figure out why a single outlet doesn't work, look for a switch. You can always short the two wires together at the switch to keep the outlet on constantly.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Ron Johnson <l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com>

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14 January 2020

Re: [DIY] Wire problem

Ohhhh the older house!!
Our old little farmhouse was built in the late 1800s... and I think the previous owners left some of that heavy black cord under part of our house

Joyce aka Mom aka Joycie

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 8:54 AM Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

And the problem now is: the outgoing hots and commons were all connected in the fuse box in unison with the hot and common coming in, which means now every circuit from that subpanel is now reversed. Except the one I worked on where I reversed the wires under the building, but still shows reversed in the fuse box (this is where colored electrical tape comes in). Since there is no ground, there isn't a problem, per se, but eventually I'll have go around with an extension cord plugged into a correctly grounded outlet and test the hots in the outlet with the ground in the cord and do what needs to be done.

Ahhh …. The joys of the older houses.

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Joyce O theoldhen@gmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 2:32 PM
To: DoIt_Yourself <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Wire problem

Glad you found the problem. Seems incorrect wiring happens a lot more than people realize.

Joyce aka Mom aka Joycie

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 9:55 AM Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

FOUND THE PROLEM

Thanks for all your answers but the real reason was something not expected.

When the fuse box subpanel was installed, it was wired incorrectly: the hot and common wires were reversed: the common was hot and the black wire completed the circuit. So removing the fuse kept the common active (hot) and since there were other outlets on the line with things pluged in (TV on standby mode) there was return current on the black (used as common) wire which was connected to the other wire I was dealing with. That's why I was getting 120 volts on both wires but 0 between them.

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of mike shoaf mike.shoaf@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 9:35 PM
To: Yahoo! Inc. <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Wire problem

You are most likely sharing the neutral (grounded) wire between two fuses and the neutral may be broken or separated somewhere. If you took it loose to make your splice that is the break! The small fuse box is a sub panel so you may overload its feeder from the main panel... IT IS TIME TO UPGRADE YOUR ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FROM THE SERVICE AND PUT YOUR PUMP CIRCUIT IN A GROUNDED PANEL!!!

On January 10, 2020, at 7:21 PM, "Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself]" <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am adding a pump to the crawl space under a building. The circuits are fuse, not circuit breakers. There is no ground in the original wires. I decided to tap into an outlet for the power to the pump. The fuse for that circuit is in the hall on a subpanel of 4 fuses that's controled from the main fuse box in a closet. I removed the fuse for that circuit before working on it.

When it got to the part where I had to pull the existing wires for one of the outlet, I found that the power was still on. So I taped up the hot side and immediately got zapped again. With my trusty meter, I checked the voltage on both wires with the muddy ground underneath: 120 volts on the hot and 120 volts on the common – but 0 volts between them. Somehow, when the fuse is put in, one of the wires drops out, giving 120 volts between them. This is the first time I've ever come across this. I have no idea how this would even happen.

Has anyone run into this situation? I may have to rerun the line from the fuse box, but I would rather not.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Joyce O <theoldhen@gmail.com>

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Re: [DIY] Wire problem

And the problem now is: the outgoing hots and commons were all connected in the fuse box in unison with the hot and common coming in, which means now every circuit from that subpanel is now reversed. Except the one I worked on where I reversed the wires under the building, but still shows reversed in the fuse box (this is where colored electrical tape comes in). Since there is no ground, there isn't a problem, per se, but eventually I'll have go around with an extension cord plugged into a correctly grounded outlet and test the hots in the outlet with the ground in the cord and do what needs to be done.

Ahhh …. The joys of the older houses.

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Joyce O theoldhen@gmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 2:32 PM
To: DoIt_Yourself <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Wire problem

Glad you found the problem. Seems incorrect wiring happens a lot more than people realize.

Joyce aka Mom aka Joycie

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 9:55 AM Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

FOUND THE PROLEM

Thanks for all your answers but the real reason was something not expected.

When the fuse box subpanel was installed, it was wired incorrectly: the hot and common wires were reversed: the common was hot and the black wire completed the circuit. So removing the fuse kept the common active (hot) and since there were other outlets on the line with things pluged in (TV on standby mode) there was return current on the black (used as common) wire which was connected to the other wire I was dealing with. That's why I was getting 120 volts on both wires but 0 between them.

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of mike shoaf mike.shoaf@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 9:35 PM
To: Yahoo! Inc. <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Wire problem

You are most likely sharing the neutral (grounded) wire between two fuses and the neutral may be broken or separated somewhere. If you took it loose to make your splice that is the break! The small fuse box is a sub panel so you may overload its feeder from the main panel... IT IS TIME TO UPGRADE YOUR ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FROM THE SERVICE AND PUT YOUR PUMP CIRCUIT IN A GROUNDED PANEL!!!

On January 10, 2020, at 7:21 PM, "Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself]" <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am adding a pump to the crawl space under a building. The circuits are fuse, not circuit breakers. There is no ground in the original wires. I decided to tap into an outlet for the power to the pump. The fuse for that circuit is in the hall on a subpanel of 4 fuses that's controled from the main fuse box in a closet. I removed the fuse for that circuit before working on it.

When it got to the part where I had to pull the existing wires for one of the outlet, I found that the power was still on. So I taped up the hot side and immediately got zapped again. With my trusty meter, I checked the voltage on both wires with the muddy ground underneath: 120 volts on the hot and 120 volts on the common – but 0 volts between them. Somehow, when the fuse is put in, one of the wires drops out, giving 120 volts between them. This is the first time I've ever come across this. I have no idea how this would even happen.

Has anyone run into this situation? I may have to rerun the line from the fuse box, but I would rather not.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Ron Johnson <l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com>

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Re: [DIY] Wire problem

Hey now. There is nothing wrong with being too sensitive.
just sayin'

Besides... women prefer men who are sensitive

Joyce aka Mom aka Joycie

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 3:34 PM Bob Davis bob@wrobertdavis.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

You are way too sensitive.

On Jan 11, 2020, at 5:31 AM, Mountain Master mountain953346@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I don't appreciate the shouting in this message nor do I appreciate the obvious conclusion Ary statements with insufficient fax it is also possible that he's tapped into a 220 line and there is no ground that he brought down and he simply needs a third wire who knows without seeing it so therefore I furthermore don't appreciate the conclusion

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2020, at 7:35 PM, mike shoaf mike.shoaf@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

You are most likely sharing the neutral (grounded) wire between two fuses and the neutral may be broken or separated somewhere. If you took it loose to make your splice that is the break! The small fuse box is a sub panel so you may overload its feeder from the main panel. IT IS TIME TO UPGRADE YOUR ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FROM THE SERVICE AND PUT YOUR PUMP CIRCUIT IN A GROUNDED PANEL!!!

On January 10, 2020, at 7:21 PM, "Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself]" <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am adding a pump to the crawl space under a building. The circuits are fuse, not circuit breakers. There is no ground in the original wires.. I decided to tap into an outlet for the power to the pump. The fuse for that circuit is in the hall on a subpanel of 4 fuses that's controled from the main fuse box in a closet. I removed the fuse for that circuit before working on it.

When it got to the part where I had to pull the existing wires for one of the outlet, I found that the power was still on. So I taped up the hot side and immediately got zapped again. With my trusty meter, I checked the voltage on both wires with the muddy ground underneath: 120 volts on the hot and 120 volts on the common – but 0 volts between them. Somehow, when the fuse is put in, one of the wires drops out, giving 120 volts between them. This is the first time I've ever come across this. I have no idea how this would even happen.

Has anyone run into this situation? I may have to rerun the line from the fuse box, but I would rather not.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Joyce O <theoldhen@gmail.com>

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Re: [DIY] Wire problem

You are way too sensitive.

On Jan 11, 2020, at 5:31 AM, Mountain Master mountain953346@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I don't appreciate the shouting in this message nor do I appreciate the obvious conclusion Ary statements with insufficient fax it is also possible that he's tapped into a 220 line and there is no ground that he brought down and he simply needs a third wire who knows without seeing it so therefore I furthermore don't appreciate the conclusion

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2020, at 7:35 PM, mike shoaf mike.shoaf@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

You are most likely sharing the neutral (grounded) wire between two fuses and the neutral may be broken or separated somewhere. If you took it loose to make your splice that is the break! The small fuse box is a sub panel so you may overload its feeder from the main panel. IT IS TIME TO UPGRADE YOUR ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FROM THE SERVICE AND PUT YOUR PUMP CIRCUIT IN A GROUNDED PANEL!!!

On January 10, 2020, at 7:21 PM, "Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself]" <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am adding a pump to the crawl space under a building. The circuits are fuse, not circuit breakers. There is no ground in the original wires.. I decided to tap into an outlet for the power to the pump. The fuse for that circuit is in the hall on a subpanel of 4 fuses that's controled from the main fuse box in a closet. I removed the fuse for that circuit before working on it.

When it got to the part where I had to pull the existing wires for one of the outlet, I found that the power was still on. So I taped up the hot side and immediately got zapped again. With my trusty meter, I checked the voltage on both wires with the muddy ground underneath: 120 volts on the hot and 120 volts on the common – but 0 volts between them. Somehow, when the fuse is put in, one of the wires drops out, giving 120 volts between them. This is the first time I've ever come across this. I have no idea how this would even happen.

Has anyone run into this situation? I may have to rerun the line from the fuse box, but I would rather not.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Bob Davis <bob@wrobertdavis.com>

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Re: [DIY] Wire problem

Glad you found the problem. Seems incorrect wiring happens a lot more than people realize.

Joyce aka Mom aka Joycie

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 9:55 AM Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

FOUND THE PROLEM

Thanks for all your answers but the real reason was something not expected.

When the fuse box subpanel was installed, it was wired incorrectly: the hot and common wires were reversed: the common was hot and the black wire completed the circuit. So removing the fuse kept the common active (hot) and since there were other outlets on the line with things pluged in (TV on standby mode) there was return current on the black (used as common) wire which was connected to the other wire I was dealing with. That's why I was getting 120 volts on both wires but 0 between them.

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of mike shoaf mike.shoaf@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 9:35 PM
To: Yahoo! Inc. <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Wire problem

You are most likely sharing the neutral (grounded) wire between two fuses and the neutral may be broken or separated somewhere. If you took it loose to make your splice that is the break! The small fuse box is a sub panel so you may overload its feeder from the main panel... IT IS TIME TO UPGRADE YOUR ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FROM THE SERVICE AND PUT YOUR PUMP CIRCUIT IN A GROUNDED PANEL!!!

On January 10, 2020, at 7:21 PM, "Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself]" <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am adding a pump to the crawl space under a building. The circuits are fuse, not circuit breakers. There is no ground in the original wires. I decided to tap into an outlet for the power to the pump. The fuse for that circuit is in the hall on a subpanel of 4 fuses that's controled from the main fuse box in a closet. I removed the fuse for that circuit before working on it.

When it got to the part where I had to pull the existing wires for one of the outlet, I found that the power was still on. So I taped up the hot side and immediately got zapped again. With my trusty meter, I checked the voltage on both wires with the muddy ground underneath: 120 volts on the hot and 120 volts on the common – but 0 volts between them. Somehow, when the fuse is put in, one of the wires drops out, giving 120 volts between them. This is the first time I've ever come across this. I have no idea how this would even happen.

Has anyone run into this situation? I may have to rerun the line from the fuse box, but I would rather not.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Joyce O <theoldhen@gmail.com>

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13 January 2020

Re: [DIY] Wire problem

FOUND THE PROLEM

Thanks for all your answers but the real reason was something not expected.

When the fuse box subpanel was installed, it was wired incorrectly: the hot and common wires were reversed: the common was hot and the black wire completed the circuit. So removing the fuse kept the common active (hot) and since there were other outlets on the line with things pluged in (TV on standby mode) there was return current on the black (used as common) wire which was connected to the other wire I was dealing with. That's why I was getting 120 volts on both wires but 0 between them.

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of mike shoaf mike.shoaf@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 9:35 PM
To: Yahoo! Inc. <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Wire problem

You are most likely sharing the neutral (grounded) wire between two fuses and the neutral may be broken or separated somewhere. If you took it loose to make your splice that is the break! The small fuse box is a sub panel so you may overload its feeder from the main panel.. IT IS TIME TO UPGRADE YOUR ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FROM THE SERVICE AND PUT YOUR PUMP CIRCUIT IN A GROUNDED PANEL!!!

On January 10, 2020, at 7:21 PM, "Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself]" <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am adding a pump to the crawl space under a building. The circuits are fuse, not circuit breakers. There is no ground in the original wires. I decided to tap into an outlet for the power to the pump. The fuse for that circuit is in the hall on a subpanel of 4 fuses that's controled from the main fuse box in a closet. I removed the fuse for that circuit before working on it.

When it got to the part where I had to pull the existing wires for one of the outlet, I found that the power was still on. So I taped up the hot side and immediately got zapped again. With my trusty meter, I checked the voltage on both wires with the muddy ground underneath: 120 volts on the hot and 120 volts on the common – but 0 volts between them. Somehow, when the fuse is put in, one of the wires drops out, giving 120 volts between them. This is the first time I've ever come across this. I have no idea how this would even happen.

Has anyone run into this situation? I may have to rerun the line from the fuse box, but I would rather not.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Ron Johnson <l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com>

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12 January 2020

New deadline for Yahoo Groups data request

Hi Yahoo Member,

In recent weeks, we communicated the latest changes to Yahoo Groups and explained how to request a download of any content you've previously posted to the platform. Some Groups users asked us for more time, and in response to these requests, we have decided to extend the deadline. Groups users now have until Friday, January 31, 2020 at 11:59pm PST to submit a request for their data.

We have now taken down all user content from the Yahoo Groups website. However, we will continue to accept users' requests for their data until January 31, 2020, and will ensure these have been fulfilled prior to deleting the data.

For additional support, users can email YahooGroupsEscalations@verizonmedia.com and our team will troubleshoot any issues.

Best,
The Yahoo Groups team

11 January 2020

Re: [DIY] Wire problem

If you are laying on a dirt floor getting shocked something is seriously wrong! Capital letters or not, your safety is most important!! If I offended you with my concern for your life, so be it. I am a licensed electrician who has seen too many people getting hurt or worse because of this very situation (breaking a neutral that is on a multiwire circuit). I will offend anybody if necessary to save their life!!!

On January 10, 2020, at 10:35 PM, "mike shoaf mike.shoaf@yahoo.com [DoIt_Yourself]" <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

You are most likely sharing the neutral (grounded) wire between two fuses and the neutral may be broken or separated somewhere. If you took it loose to make your splice that is the break! The small fuse box is a sub panel so you may overload its feeder from the main panel. IT IS TIME TO UPGRADE YOUR ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FROM THE SERVICE AND PUT YOUR PUMP CIRCUIT IN A GROUNDED PANEL!!!

On January 10, 2020, at 7:21 PM, "Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself]" <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote: