Do it Yourself: Re: [DIY] Neutral Wire

What's more, any changes made to this should be documented for future reference. I'm not suggesting a permit and inspection but at least a diagram and explanation for future owner or even for yourself years down the road.

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On Thursday, April 16, 2020, 4:25 PM, Jerry Hnidy jhnidy@gmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am not happy with the wires provided but I am stuck with them. It would have been a nice gesture on the part of the builder to tell us if there is a light limit.

This controls a five bulb overhead fixture and could easily get over 200. In fact I have 5 40 watt incandescents in there now. Not a word from builder.

J Hnidy
the Villages, Florida

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020, 19:07 Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

In the city I'm in, you need to use at least 12 gauge on outlets and switches. You may only use 14 gauge for lights-only circuits up to 200 watts, as measured by the fixture. In other words if its a 4-bulb fixture with 60 watt bulbs max, you need to run 12 gauge from the switch to the light even if you are using LED equivilents. That's why i odn't bother with 14 gauge; even if you had a single light in the center of the room, somebody might want a fan light and the fan means 12 gauge.

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jerry Hnidy jhnidy@gmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 11:00 PM
To: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Neutral Wire

I thought my messages always included my signature but maybe that gets stripped off somewhere.

The house was built in 2018 and is in the villages Florida..

The wire nuts are only there because the x10 switch that I installed has a length of wire attached to it. The real switch has push in connectors that I have seen a lot.

Every light in this house is LED. I don't see how that could make a difference but I can tell you that up in the attic there is the Romex I left in Michigan but the wall drops are all the smaller wires. I will measure the size in the AM and let you know.

J Hnidy
the Villages, Florida

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 20:36 Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks for the pictures. But after looking at them, I am wondering two things:

Are you in the US? Different countries have different wiring methods. I am in the U.S.A. and can only deal with our method.

How old is this house? I've never seen anything like what is in the picture and the drawing reminds me of the old kob and tube wiring.

It looks like that wire nut is splicing 4 or 5 wires and that wire nut should only do 3 at the most so another question is: What is the size of the wires?

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jerry Hnidy jhnidy@gmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 4:40 PM
To: Do It Yourself <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Neutral Wire [2 Attachments]

Once again my poor communication skills have gotten in the way.

There was a dumb switch in this box. I have replaced it with a dimmer that my X10 software can deal with. The switch that I am trying to install talks to Alexia.

There is no romex as I know it in this box. The wires look like something I would use on my Lionel train. I have sent a picture. The wires are original the switch is a replacement.

My idea for putting a neutral wire into my switch box is explained? with a drawing.

Before I attack the drywall, I will likely cut the end off an extension cord and test my theory without putting the switch into the wall. If it works, I will call a licensed electrician and see if they have any tricks to add a neutral wire..

I don't plan on adding any new boxes.

Thanks again

Jerry Windows
the Villages

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 1:20 PM Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I'm assuming that the outlet and the switch are in the same bay and you don't have to cross studs. The way I would do that is to run a Romex 12/2 cable from the outlet to power your new switch (I assume that it doesn't need any other things than power). This means you have to remove the outlet box, remove the switch box, drop a Romex down from the switch opening to the outlet opening and replace the outlet box and the switch box with a 2-gang box.

Depending on how old your house is you may have to use a reciprocating saw to cut the box supports when removing the old boxes. Then you need to size the hole for the new box, as really old boxes are smaller than modern standard boxes. Place the empty box on the wall so that two edges are on the edge of the old hole and run a pencil along the edges of the new box (marked in red). Use a keyhole saw or utility knife or your reciprocating saw – be careful as you only cutting a smaller sliver and it might crumble; also don't get carried away with the electric saw because someone will have to repair that damage. Run the wires through the back and into the box and insert the box into the hole and tighten the screws at the upper right and lower left corners – the ears will stick out and hold the box in place.

The outlet you are running a new wire from might have two wires already coming into the box. At this point you have to make a choice: either get a deeper single gang box or splice them all together and put a blank plate over it. The boxes only have so much room and something has to give.

If you have a stud between the two boxes, you have a whole new ball of wax and I would consider if you really need this change?

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jerry Hnidy jhnidy@gmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups..com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2020 8:15 AM
To: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [DIY] Neutral Wire

I did not mean to imply that there was a white wire inside the box containing the switch. There is not I am sure that power goes to the light and I break one side of the circuit with the switch. Only two wires in the switch box. When they are connected, the light comes on.

I SUSPECT that there is a white in a separate outlet below the switch. The question is if I can get to that white wire can I install my switch?

J Hnidy
the Villages, Florida

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020, 09:08 Ron Johnson l0c0l0b0@hotmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The bare wire is the ground, not the neutral. The NEC code now requires an active neutral in at least one switch in the room - whether it is used or not - for this very reason, but there are so many wired the old way that you may need to run a neutral.

You say there is a white wire in the switch box. Sometimes the power goes to the light (or outlet, if it is switch operated) then a pair of wires goes to the switch. The electrician is supposed to wrap the white wire with a different color tape (usually black, red, or blue) so it is not confused with the normal white common (neutral), but a lot of the handymen don't do that. If the white wire is connected to the switch itself, it is NOT a common.

If you are talking about the outlet itself, and the wire is connected to the left side of the outlet (the larger slot for the plug) then that is a neutral. You can test it by checking the voltage between the ground and each wire - you should get 120 on the hot and 0 on the neutral (sometimed you might get a low reading like 20 or 50, but that has to do with the fact that there are other things on that circuit).

Not knowing exactly the situation you've got, I can only say get an experienced electrician to look at it. If you are not familiar with electrical systems and methods, you can easily blow a circuit breaker or burn out the very items you want to install. Or worse, start a fire and the insurance company will probably refuse the claim since it was not done by a certified electrician.

From: DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jerry Hnidy jhnidy@gmail.com [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 10:02 PM
To: Do It Yourself <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [DIY] Neutral Wire

When I chose my new wifi wall switch, I read that I would require a neutral wire. Because I never ask enough questions and always jump to conclusions, I thought that meant the bare copper wire. The wiring diagrams prove that this is not the case and I am now one wire short. Questions:

Are they talking about the white wire that does appear in boxes that house outlets? If I am lucky and can fish a wire up from a wall outlet that happens to be near the wall switch, would that do the job? Would that pass code? Is there a better way?

Thanks

J Hnidy
the Villages, Florida