Do it Yourself: Re: [DIY] Dishwasher follow-up

15 February 2016

Re: [DIY] Dishwasher follow-up - plus rant :) [1 Attachment]

[Attachment(s) from oakridgefarm@gmail.com included below]

I think I understand the basics of what you're saying, LOL. The copper pipe coming in is half inch or less, hard to get back there. The line going to the dw is probably 3/8 braided. Since we have the re-circulator it just takes seconds for the copper pipe to heat up with the hot water to the sink, which gets about 125. The hot water runs through the braided line — just cools off instantly (I guess) when it reaches the tub. I think it comes out of the sprayers - since when you open it quick, water will spray out till it stops spinning. The plumber said the element was cool to the touch so it might be bad - but its a GE Profile, and in reading on the GE website the element is meant to stay cool and there is a water heater under the tub. I don't pretend to understand any of this. Always with a dishwasher, if you open it once the cycle starts it will send out steam. With this, a normal load setting - 49 minutes - will not get enough hot water to clean dishes, I have to use the temp boost/sanitize cycle with heated dry, and 219 minutes to wash a load of dishes. Yes, it's quiet, I can't hear it running - but just doesn't make sense it has to run four hours.

I'm beginning to believe thats the way these new energy saving systems operate. But I believe energy saving is just another word for water restriction because running any appliance twice as long as usual isn't saving electricity. I am finally able to use my new Samsung washer and dryer. First load of 6 pr knit slacks came out so twisted and tangled I rewashed them. Same with the dryer. This new low water, HE top loader decides how much water it needs and while they say it's plenty to clean the clothes, three loads and I dislike it more each time. There were delivered on the 7th of January but because of my back I wasn't able to use them till now. I've contacted Lowes but they have a 30 day return policy. The installer tested them, but with no clothes. The blame is mine for not using them immediately - now after waiting 20 years to get a new washer/dryer set — I'll probably end up cleaning out my old set and using them. I'm going to see if there is some way I can override the water fill — like removing the restrictor on a shower head - but don't have many hopes. This is kin to washing clothes in a washtub with a wash board, that's what my knit slacks look like. All pilled up and wrinkled.

Jan Flood
oakridgefarm@gmail.com

On Feb 14, 2016, at 10:04 AM, 'LarenCorie' larencorie@axilar.net [DoIt_Yourself] <DoIt_Yourself@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Rather than trying to analyze this exact problem, I will
tell a story, which very well may relate to it, but if not,
will hopefully still be helpful to someone.

Most efforts to reduce energy usage and save water,
use less water, therefore they are also slower to use the
cold water that has been setting in the hot water line. The
flexible lines that connect the faucet are usually very small,
3/8" or even 1/4", but the line running from the water heater
is often 3/4", which is four time larger than a 3/8" line, and
nine time the size of a 1/4" line. In addition, the long pipe
is usually metal, so that it not only conductions heat away
from the water fast, but also has quite a bit of "thermal mass"
which means that it absorbs a lot of heat, to even raise the
pipe temperature, just a little bit. Add to that, running the
pipe through a cold basement or crawlspace, and often
no insulation on the pipe, and the result is a faucet that
takes several minutes, of blasting cold water, before
the hot water that leaves the heater will arrive at the
faucet, hot. Who would install such a bad system?

We had to hire a licensed plumber to run the line to
our kitchen sink. It was a requirement for our mortgage.
He installed a 3/4" copper line, about 20ft long and it
took a few minutes for any hot water to reach the sink.
Even after I fully insulated the pipe, the highly conductive
copper would still suck the heat out of the water, until
the copper was heated to the temperature of the water.

A few month later, we installed a large whirlpool bath
tub, about the same distance from the water heater. But,
as an energy knowledgeable person, who is also not afraid
of math, I used 1/2" CPVC, with insulation. If it were just
a sink, I would use a smaller line, the same size as the flexible
lines at the sink. The smallest line defines the flow rate, so it
makes no sense to run a big line to a small one. The result of
our 1/2" CPVC to the tub is that we have virtually instant
hot water, within 2-4 seconds, at full temperature. This is
because the 20ft pipe only holds 1/5gal. At 8gal/min that
would only take 1.53secs to empty the pipe. The near
instant hot water is the result of 1) a properly small supply
line, 2) insulating the line, and 3) using a non-metal low
low thermal mass pipe, such as PEX or CPVC which
heats up fast, and absorbs almost no heat from the water.

This helps even when using a lot of water, like our
large tub does. But, especially when using very little
water, it is critical to not have plumbing lines that
suck heat from the water, and are also not oversized,
or hot water may never reach the point of use. A very
small pipe (the size of the flexible connection lines, at
the appliance) is plenty large enough to supply all the
hot water that a water saving dishwasher needs. Instead
of throwing more good energy after bad, replace the
outdated, oversized, uninsulated, high thermal mass
pipes, with plumbing that is efficient enough for
an energy efficient, water saving dishwasher.

BTW....running CPVC plumbing is really easy.
Connect it to the other plumbing with SharkBite
or threaded fasteners. It cuts with just about any
saw, and simply glues together.

-Laren Corie-
Natural Solar Building Design and
Solar Heating/Natural Cooling/Energy
Efficiency Consultation Since 1975

Read my Solar house design articles in:
-Energy Self-Sufficiency Newsletter-
http://www.dongrays.com/essn/

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